Curse

Kaon · Nov 04, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

The reason we (vZ) never play on our main guild besides for Qp and monthly, is simply because it otherwise takes 100hours to find a match.

The ladder system as it is, is useless, when we play on one of our smurfs, we simply resign every time we face a <1200 guild (unless we know they're good or deserve spanking) and rickroll anyone above.

They should reset ladder to its old 30k rating values, and totally remove any 4member or 14day requirement, it is completely useless and ridiculous.

If i go outside to play a game of football, i don't want my friends to say "i can't play with you because if i do i can't play the official game next weekend." In the same fashion, if we're about to play a tournament and we need another player. It would be logical to call the friend who has been playing with us for many years, but he can't because "has hasn't been guildmember for 14days."

Competition isn't names of guilds playing against each other, it's about PLAYERS playing against each other, and everything should be done to STIMULATE that instead of preventing it like is happening now.

To continue on with the football metaphore, professional clubs usually have around 30 players, and many of those players play only a few times a year, that's less than any random pug in guild wars.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 05, 2007, 08:59 AM // 08:59

the way to fix smurfing is to reset the ladder, or at the very least, give you more than +2 for a win, so they can at least go to the top, get sold, and then get tanked down to sub 1000s.

Also, if you brought back the old ELO, people can tank bad guilds that farm ATs out of the top 10.

Div · Nov 05, 2007, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

the way to fix smurfing is to reset the ladder, or at the very least, give you more than +2 for a win, so they can at least go to the top, get sold, and then get tanked down to sub 1000s.

Or to reduce the ridiculous wait times and give at least +1 to a match that's played. When you have to wait 20 minutes for a +0 match on the main guild, why wouldn't you smurf? That way, at least the starter guilds will only lose -1 for a loss instead of a -2 or -3, so it won't discourage them as much. Plus they get to play against the actual team (which usually psyches me up more), instead of "just some smurf." And it'll reduce the smurfing problem a bit, as there isn't as strong of a reason to smurf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Most (if not all) of the time, guild smurfs consist of 4 members on "secondary accounts", and 4 guests on their main accounts.
What I'm suggesting is that, instead of basing matchups on the guild's rating, instead take the rating of all the party's guilds and average them together, and base the matchup on that rating, instead. So for example, if you had a new guild of 4 people, with 4 guests from a 1600 rating guild, your guild would technically have a rating of 1300 (still no Champ points, though) and you would face a guild with around 1300 rating. Obviously, it isn't perfect, and people will still find ways around it, but it's probably something that will discourage smurfing.

Another problem is as you've mentioned. If they really wanted to bypass the system, I'm pretty sure they could get 8 accounts in there to play.

Plus, if your proposal goes into effect, it may be interesting to see how certain capeleechers' guesting will be affected. Someone may be leeching (just joining the guild for the trim and not playing at all) a gold trim off a top 20 guild, but may only be a top 200 exp player. Should the guild they guest for be penalized because they chose him over someone in a rank 200 guild?

If middle ranged guilds (200-300) wanted easier matchups, would they park some of their accounts in a rank 2k guild and use guests like that to skew the matchups?

The system may work at the superficial level, but there are a lot more problems it'll cause.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 05, 2007, 09:53 AM // 09:53

I don't actually think changing the ELO would solve the problem of smurfing, I just want to see more teams get tanked, which would clean up the ladder (pretty sure Jen's soldiers hasn't played in 6 months) and take a few of the 'top' teams down a couple notches.

Div · Nov 05, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I don't actually think changing the ELO would solve the problem of smurfing, I just want to see more teams get tanked, which would clean up the ladder (pretty sure Jen's soldiers hasn't played in 6 months) and take a few of the 'top' teams down a couple notches.

Seems like smurfing and inactive guilds taking up ladder space are different arguments, but if something like this (http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3358) goes through, we'll see inactive guilds tanked out of existence in no time!

Just look at XoO, rank 15, 1400+ rating to barely top 100, 1250- rating in a little over a month.

red orc · Nov 05, 2007, 10:26 AM // 10:26

I dont see the issue here.
So you got your face in the dirt.
If you fight a guild who's rank is like yours and they finish like you were butter, you know they are much much better than you.
It happend to all of us sometimes.
I personaly feel relay bad when a group of scrub wins Vs my guild. On the other hand if someone we can see are truely better rolls us, we dont have bad feelings.

No problem.

Divinus Stella · Nov 05, 2007, 11:07 AM // 11:07

A lot of smurfs are for champ points farming or just pugging when theres not enough for a real GvG, you can just grab people from alliance/flist and play something really broken that anyone can win with.

Yue · Nov 05, 2007, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

A lot of smurfs are for champ points farming or just pugging when theres not enough for a real GvG, you can just grab people from alliance/flist and play something really broken that anyone can win with.

QFT.

Also, farming smurfs into champ point range to sell is one of the few ways you can make gold from gvging.

psygnosis · Nov 05, 2007, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Actually we are smurfing because we are looking for a new prot monk atm and test different ppl, also when we have less then 6 ppl online we prefer to play on smurf cause its a difference to play with guests than with full guild team ~

Oh and ofc we try different stuffs, and run fun builds on smurf cause we have some (Hi Chemical <3) rating who*** who will cry about every -2 ^____^

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 05, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Also, a lot of the things people identify as smurfs/PuGs are actually legitimate guilds. I often guest for sub-1000 guilds that don't have enough on to play regularly, so they ask a top 100 player who's guild isn't playing at the time. That player brings his friends, and you end up with several top 100 players guesting for a low-ranked guild.

The problems smurfing on the ladder caused are long-since fixed by the AT system. The biggest problem with smurfing on the ladder right now is the lack of imaginative smurf guild names.

Winstar · Nov 05, 2007, 02:59 PM // 14:59

When you're at the lower levels of GvG your rank/rating doesn't really mean that much. If you're 1000+ rank, moving up or down a little doesn't really matter and if you are worried about a -3 from running across one of these guilds remember its also easy to recover from.

Regardless, what is more important is being patient and trying to get better at the game as others have pointed out. This might not equate with a rise up the ladder right away. Eventually it might, but there is a tendency to get too hung up on rank/rating. Worry about finding things in your play every match that you want to improve and work on them, whether or its more effective skill use on an individual level, or larger tactical awareness issues etc.

I think this is an issue if its the case that you are playing mostly pugs and smurfs. Its hard to really dissect what what wrong and learn a lot from a string of 2-5 min losses sometimes.

If this is the case why not make an effort to find other teams in similar positions and try and set up scrimmages on a consistent basis. Maybe make an alliance for this purpose. It guarantees comparable matches and you can take the time to talk about games afterwards and really try and learn.

Ben-A-BoO · Nov 05, 2007, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

If you aren't learning anything from being beat into the ground, you aren't trying hard enough to learn. With all the tools GW gives you (damage monitor, obs mode, etc.), and all the information at your disposal (forums, wiki, other players, etc.), if you can't figure out why you party wipe in 4 minutes I really don't know what to tell you. You know what skills they use, you know (in a general sense) how they used them, and you can see how they're organized on the field. That tells you a lot already - make note of it and work from there.

Finally, being able to benefit from top players is a matter of understanding - you don't actually need much experience to learn something from being crushed. Being familiar with theory is enough to get started, and that takes minimal effort. Also, you'd be surprised how many people can't instantly recognize skills from the icons, or who don't know basic mechanics (e.g., critical hits on kiting targets), or who can't even play their character at a basic level (e.g., weapon swapping, kiting, skill activation without looking at skillbar, etc.). You can learn all of that stuff without a single iota of GvG experience, and most of it comes down to rote practice. If you can't be bothered to even do that, then I'm frankly not surprised that you complain about being crushed.

I'll pull another example from fighting games. When you first start playing, a top player is likely to double-perfect you in 10s every match, 20 matches in a row. You probably don't have anywhere near her reaction speeds, you don't have her execution (read: muscle memory), and you don't have her extensive knowledge of situational tactics, counter-tactics, and general shenanigans. However, what you can do before you even step foot in the arcade the first time is learn everything about the characters and their moves. Figure out which moves are overheads, which moves hit low, which moves have special properties (x frames of invincibility, superarmor, auto-parry, etc.). You can also begin to get a general feeling of when moves should be used, and which moves are really good - some moves have big hitboxes, some moves are really fast, some moves can be cancelled into a lot of different things. You can figure all of this stuff out without playing anyone; and knowing all of this is exactly what prepares you to learn something from getting your face smashed in by a top-10 player.

I don't claim that you can go into a GvG match completely ignorant about GW and expect to learn anything. A drooling idiot can't be taught a damn thing by anyone until that blank stare is wiped off his face and some semblance of mediocrity is beaten into him. Reaching that requisite level of mediocrity in GW can be done on your own and is therefore entirely your responsibility.

That post should have been the end of the thread.

Lord Mendes · Nov 05, 2007, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The biggest problem with smurfing on the ladder right now is the lack of imaginative smurf guild names.

I agree with this statement.

erk · Nov 05, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

I play in a guild that you might call a smurf PUG almost every night, it's seldom on the ladder, but usually comprised of players from < 500 guilds. It's for playing AT's as the ELO is so extreme in AT's that a couple of losses and you loose 15-20 rating points. So it's easier just to play AT's in PUG guild where we don't care about the rating. Also it's a great place to practice builds you don't normally play.

Snow Bunny · Nov 06, 2007, 06:27 AM // 06:27

I dunno, it's really fun to stomp unprepared guilds sometime.

tricolorsp · Nov 06, 2007, 08:29 PM // 20:29

reasons people smurf:
25+minutes to find a match and when you finally do you get some r1000ish that get rolled in 5 minutes and get like +0 rating.
if you smurf you gonna get the same team in 5minutes, gonna roll in 5minutes and gonna get +3/+2 rating.

there is no point to play in the main guild when you reach like top30, cause it takes too long to get matches and you almost always get a +0.

i know my english rocks

;[ u edited my trade topic.....CMON... I NEED ECTOS (give u 10e if u help me trade it) ;]

AlexGuildDrama · Nov 08, 2007, 09:13 AM // 09:13

What fuels smurfing is people purchasing extra accounts, which is good of course, or the declining popularity in Guild Wars, so therefore accounts being recycled. The declining popularity in Guild Wars is a more important and different issue.

red orc · Nov 08, 2007, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

When you're at the lower levels of GvG your rank/rating doesn't really mean that much. If you're 1000+ rank, moving up or down a little doesn't really matter and if you are worried about a -3 from running across one of these guilds remember its also easy to recover from.
.

This is the most stupid and arogant post I've ever seen.
PPL care about thier rank, it doesn't matter if they are NA turning into 9978 ranked guild or 11th turning into top 10.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 08, 2007, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

This is the most stupid and arogant post I've ever seen.
PPL care about thier rank, it doesn't matter if they are NA turning into 9978 ranked guild or 11th turning into top 10.

It does matter, no one cares about being r9978 or r9977.

If your guild is seriously trying and you're not at least top 1000, you should look into the mirror rather than blaming smurf/pugs for a few -2s.

psygnosis · Nov 08, 2007, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

It does matter, no one cares about being r9978 or r9977.

If your guild is seriously trying and you're not at least top 1000, you should look into the mirror rather than blaming smurf/pugs for a few -2s.

Well Mitch we played some 1k + Guild some days ago, and we played on our smurf (which is also top 100...) and they were like complaining that its unfair from us to smurf, and us stealing points from em ~_~. so yea there are ppl that care.